[FM Discuss] Wordpress stuff

Mon Mar 3 03:16:27 PST 2008

Apologies for coming to the discussion a little late.

If the question is about where to "draw the line" in reference to  
supporting / promoting non-free products/services/formats, I'd like to  
add a couple of points.

But let me preface this by saying that I am no fan of the itunes  
store, I've never used it and don't see using it in the future.

However in the case of something like a manual which covers  
podcasting / and promoting podcasts using FLOSS, it's reasonable to  
assume a reader of the manual would be interested in learning how to  
get their podcast on the itunes store.  As long as the methods used to  
get the podcast don't prevent the promotion of the same material via  
more "open" venues, I don't see a conflict.  Is this not similar to  
using Samba to make data available to proprietary systems ?

Put in the proper context, and with sufficient explanation of the  
shortcomings and strengths of various promotion methods, I'd be  
inclined to give the reader the opportunity to make up their own minds  
based on good information.  I'd argue that once people are aware of  
all the implications, exclusive use of the itunes store isn't going to  
be the top choice anyway.  Wouldn't explanation, rather than omission,  
make  a better case for providing open access to content?

BTW, the "non-DRM" music on the iTunes store isn't really DRM free.   
It has a digital watermark which indicates who the original purchaser  
is.  It might be better to think about it as DRM-lite.

On Mar 2, 2008, at 10:26 PM, Mr. Snow wrote:

>
> thank you all for talking through these points with me .
>
> - in the manual as it stands i refer to itunes and songbird for
> testing the podcast .
> - in the manual as it stands i refer to paying wordpress.com in order
> to be able to upload music and video . i paid 20$ in order to write
> this section of the manual .
>
> - in the manual as i had envisaged it ( tactical as not directed the
> specifics writing of it, only that it cover podcasting with
> wordpress ) i was going to include a section on how to publicize  - a
> podcast using the itunes store ( which is free, perhaps not open,
> though well documented ) . the listening to such cast mayn't be open,
> but adding 5 lines of xml is free .
>
> - i am more than happy to look at miro as another channel .
> - i am more than happy to remove references to itunes . if anyone has
> another media player i can write about that is non-beta, that would
> be ideal .
> - i am concerned about the 20$ requirement of one of the chapters .
> but removing it would remove the ability to use the wordpress.com
> service for podcasting altogether .
> - i am happy to leave out publicizing a podcast via the store . the
> itunes extension to the rss format IS NOT required in order to use
> itunes store, it simply improves the podcast's metadata . it is well
> documented and i have left a link to the documentation in the
> chapter . in order to take advantage of the rss itunes:namespace, one
> would need greater knowledge of a couple of areas of wordpress, that
> are currently not provided by the manual .
>
>
> so lets itemize the questions, and take a vote ( is that how it
> works ? ) or those who get to decide, let them decide .
>
> 1	can an open manual encourage the reader to spend money on open but
> non-free services ?
>
> 2	can an open manual refer to the use of free but non-open software ?
>
> 3	can an open manual spruke a non-open service ?
>
>
>
>
>
> On 03/03/2008, at 7:57 AM, Simon Yuill wrote:
>
>> Hi Seth,
>>
>> I appreciate your points about accessibility and not being
>> 'religious', and agree with them to some extent, however,
>> I would argue that the issue with the iTunes store in
>> relation to 'libre' services is that you can only access
>> it through the non-free iTunes software, so regardless of
>> what licence you distribute your content under, it still
>> places restrictions on how you access it. iTunes store may
>> be 'free' in terms of what you put in but it is not 'free'
>> (as in libre) in terms of how you can get it out at the
>> other end. For this reason I would argue that it is not
>> appropriate to encourage its use in a project dedicated to
>> encouraging FLOSS uptake. I would argue that for this
>> reason that to promote iTunes usage does indeed bend the
>> principles of FLOSS quite considerably.
>>
>> There is an article here on why the French newspaper
>> Liberation has chosen Miro over iTunes for its podcasts:
>>
>> http://pculture.org/devblogs/teammiro/2008/01/19/french-newspaper-
>> to-recommend-miro/
>>
>> One point Liberation make in the article is that they felt
>> using iTunes for distribution made their content less
>> accessible.
>>
>> I would agree that there needs to be a balance between
>> purity of principle and accessibility, but I don't think
>> we would compromise on accessibility if we give preference
>> to encouraging services that are properly FLOSS or closer
>> to FLOSS in how they operate.
>>
>> best wishes
>> Si
>>
>> On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:25:00 -0800
>>  "Seth Woodworth" <seth at isforinsects.com> wrote:
>>> I'm not a regular contributor to FM, but I disagree.
>>>
>>> One: iTunes is opening it's DRM considerably as of late,
>>> and offering higher
>>> quality and non-drm songs.
>>> Two: iTines contains content from many of the open
>>> lecture series from MIT
>>> Harvard etc that are all open content and CC licensed.
>>> This material is for
>>> free, and is extensive.  So FM would be in good company.
>>> Three: Doesn't it make sense to try to preach to the
>>> people in the iTunes
>>> crowd?  Attempt to be a voice of reason and explain
>>> positions to people who
>>> might not otherwise hear them?
>>>
>>> All of my arguments assume one can publish with iTunes
>>> non-exclusively.  But
>>> I think that distribution with iTunes, Podiobooks (CC
>>> audiobooks), or any
>>> organization that will carry FM content.
>>>
>>> I feel/think that one of the purposes is to document
>>> FLOSS projects to break
>>> down some of these religious disagreements between free
>>> and non-free
>>> systems.  Distribution through iTunes would reach a very
>>> large audience with
>>> little or no bending of morals or principles.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:21 AM, adam hyde
>>> <adam at flossmanuals.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you Simon - FM is for FLOSS and if we cross
>>>> into services
>>>> then these should be free services (but what exactly is
>>>> the equivalent
>>>> of 'libre' when it comes to services is a tricky issue
>>>> in itself).
>>>>
>>>> Mr Snow, the material you have written looks fantastic.
>>>> However I think
>>>> we need to leave the iTunes material out of the FM
>>>> repository. I
>>>> understand you are writing these under commission for
>>>> Tactical
>>>> Technology Collective - how adamant are they that iTunes
>>>> store is
>>>> documented? I am sure we can find another ('libre')
>>>> solution...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 15:36 +0000, Simon Yuill wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just following up on a point in Mr Snow's last
>>>> mail:
>>>>>
>>>>>> i have just been looking into adding ones podcast to
>>>> the itunes store
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder is it really appropriate that we should be
>>>>> including tutorials that encourage use of non-FLOSS
>>>>> services such as the iTunes store?
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate FM is taking a 'broad church' approach to
>>>>> encouraging FLOSS usage, but to me something like this
>>>> is
>>>>> maybe crossing a line that we shouldn't. I am asking
>>>>> partly as it raises the question of how (or if) we are
>>>>> setting our own boundaries for what is appropriate to
>>>>> include?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not intended as a criticism of Mr Snow and what
>>>>> looks like an excellent tutorial overall, but I am
>>>>> interested to know what people think ....
>>>>>
>>>>> best wishes
>>>>> Si
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>> Discuss at lists.flossmanuals.net
>>>>>
>>>> http://lists.flossmanuals.net/listinfo.cgi/discuss-flossmanuals.net
>>>> --
>>>> Adam Hyde
>>>> FLOSS Manuals
>>>>
>>>> http://www.flossmanuals.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>> Discuss at lists.flossmanuals.net
>>>> http://lists.flossmanuals.net/listinfo.cgi/discuss-flossmanuals.net
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss at lists.flossmanuals.net
>> http://lists.flossmanuals.net/listinfo.cgi/discuss-flossmanuals.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.flossmanuals.net
> http://lists.flossmanuals.net/listinfo.cgi/discuss-flossmanuals.net