[FM Discuss] Wordpress stuff

Wed Mar 5 10:13:07 PST 2008

Hey,

The way I look at it, we write manuals for using free software on all
operating systems including Windows and OSX...to write free software
manuals only for free operating systems would be ideologically
consistent, however there would be less opportunity to convert people to
free software. we would be essentially 'preaching to the converted'. 

so i guess my position, as awoken by this discussion, is to venture over
the purist border into the non-free user camp, and try to do the
following (in his order) :
1) show people that there is a free software to meet their needs
2) educate them as to the issues involved 

I think in some way this issue is recognised by everyone that has been
posted on this discussion. If it wasn't somehow implicitly understood by
all I think we would be having a much different kind of discussion. We
would not be asking about the appropriateness of the iTunes store, we
would instead be stuck on issues of open codecs (MP3 vs OGG).

So it seems to me that most people have the understanding that standing
in the 'non-free' camp is ok, but only so far as it enables us to
educate others as to the viability of free software and issues involved 

if you allow me a small fantasy analogy - I would much rather talk about
the merits of free software to a room full of Microsoft Windows users
than a room full of Linux users. The second group might be more friendly
and agree with me more, but I think showing the Windows group that free
software can do what they need would be a more effective strategy for
increasing the adoption of free software

so...on that note I guess, for me, its a question of 'how far' we wish
to go. i don't believe there is a 'rule' we can develop that can apply
every time we might encounter this issue. I think we have to resolve
this on a case-by-case basis. in this case, i feel that if we highlight
that using iTunes store is possible, but there are other choices which
could be considered and 'by the way' there is the question of ownership
of content and drm...then we have led someone to a point where they have
a choice and given them at least some tools by which they can make a
decision.

this seems to me to be a reasonable approach, and one that is more
likely to get someone over to 'our side' than either ignoring the issue
(by not recognising they _want_ to use the iTunes store), or whacking
them around the ears with ideology

adam

On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 14:50 +0000, Benjamin Dembroski wrote:
> Hi Luka,
> 
> I just wanted to clarify my comparison with Samba.
> 
> Samba (like Wordpress) FLOSS that can be used in conjunction with  
> closed / proprietary systems.  I realize the analogy isn't perfect,  
> but my point in using the analogy was to demonstrate that there will  
> likely always be an 'overlap' in the use of Free / non-free systems  
> for the vast majority of users.  In this case, adding the required  
> metadata to have material represented on ITMS (if I understand this  
> correctly) wouldn't hamper accessibility to the same material by open  
> systems. -- similar to using Samba.
> 
> I completely agree that it's probably poor tactics to portray iTunes /  
> ITMS as a preferable option -- for all the reasons stated in this  
> discussion.  However, I think that mentioning a closed system in  
> comparison to an open one is a good opportunity to introduce the  
> relative merits of either system to an audience that might not  
> otherwise be aware of the issues at all.
> 
> Best,
> Ben
> 
> On Mar 5, 2008, at 4:37 AM, Luka Princic / Nova Viator wrote:
> 
> > adam hyde <adam at flossmanuals.net>:
> >
> >> I'm also in agreement - as long as we offer alternatives alongside it
> >> and raise the issues. I have changed my position after the  
> >> interesting
> >> debate...any other votes for / against?
> >
> >
> > hi,
> >
> > i'm not very active here, but i somehow wanted to add to the debate
> > here, with a thought or two.
> >
> > while i respect the work being put into the manual, i think the bottom
> > line of my thinking ends up at the thought, that there would be no
> > FLOSS really if popularity would be a good argument to decide what
> > should be worked on. i think popularity of flash video format is what
> > among other factors is stiffling the development of free solution like
> > ogg theora. i think it's a good position to put (money and) energy  
> > into
> > things that are good or even better but not necessarily popular.
> > personaly (and that includes some very subjective impulses, i admit) i
> > find the manual that uses itunes as the best option to distribute
> > and promote your own podcasts highly problematic in context of 'free
> > manuals for free software'. samba itself is free software for example
> > and any client can connect to it. i would rather put itunes as  
> > second or
> > third alternative and 'promote' rather some 'freedom-respecting'
> > services. like jamendo, archive.org, itheora?
> >
> > just my 2 quick cents.
> >
> >
> > best, luka.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> adam
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 09:55 +1100, Mr. Snow wrote:
> >>> hi there .
> >>>
> >>> yes it raised a few issues and hackles quite quickly .
> >>>
> >>> my feeling at the moment is still that we should introduce ideas
> >>> about how to perfect integration with the itunes store . not only
> >>> because it should increase eyeballs there, but because it is
> >>> likely other podcast aggregators will read itunes:namespace as
> >>> well .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 05/03/2008, at 2:03 AM, Mick Fuzz wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --- adam hyde <adam at flossmanuals.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So where did we get with this very interesting
> >>>>> discussion...Mr
> >>>>> Snow...what are your thoughts on it at the moment?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I think this is a good issue to decide this on. If you
> >>>> put a video feed created by FLOSS tools into iTunes
> >>>> then you are likely to get a lot of views for your
> >>>> video files. Undercurrents.org are looking at about
> >>>> 300,000 per episode for their recent ones.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you don't then you are looking at using YouTube to
> >>>> get a similar amount of viewers.
> >>>>
> >>>> So  you could say it's one way of biting the biscuit
> >>>> without getting burned.
> >>>>
> >>>> But what we are really talking about here is the
> >>>> support for the itunes tags in the feed specification.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And actually the alternative Media RSS is maintained
> >>>> by Yahoo, which may soon be owned by MS, so that
> >>>> alternative isn't looking very good either. Unless you
> >>>> want to extend an Atom spec, which is what we are
> >>>> doing for the Transmission standard.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm working on a wiki page about similar issues here.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://wiki.transmission.cc/index.php/
> >>>> What_video_publishing_sites_need_to_create_in_terms_of_feed
> >>>>
> >>>> Any feedback is gratefully received, I know it's
> >>>> looking a bit barren at the moment. But there is a lot
> >>>> of information if you follow the links.
> >>>>
> >>>> All the best,
> >>>> Mick.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------o)------------------
> >>>> http://clearerchannel.org video distro
> >>>> http://transmission.cc/projects -metadata anyone?
> >>>>
> >>>> phone: 07913 882193
> >>>> new email : mickfuzz at clearerchannel.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>>> ______________
> >>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> >>>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://
> >>>> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>> Discuss at lists.flossmanuals.net
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> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >> -- 
> >> Adam Hyde
> >> FLOSS Manuals
> >>
> >> http://www.flossmanuals.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > -- 
> > Nova deViator ¤ http://viator.si ¤ http://skylined.org ¤
> > _______________________________________________
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> 
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-- 
Adam Hyde
FLOSS Manuals

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