Astra,<br><br>Democracy is a fuzzy term. Substitute more democratic or something perhaps. Relative to patronage connoting an unequal relationship between ultra rich patrons and artists, crowdfunding significantly changes who gets to be a patron as well as the artist's relationship with patrons. Feel free to qualify, rewrite, add counterpoint, etc!<br>
<br>Michael,<br><br>There's only a couple sentences on Diaspora, hardly enough to strongly disagree with. Maybe not. Anyway, I'd be interested to see your rewrite.<br><br>Mike<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Astra Taylor <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:astra@hiddendriver.com">astra@hiddendriver.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;">I don't know what to say about Mike's point but reading the final paragraph makes me wonder about this equation of crowdfunding and democracy -- I think kickstarter is a totally useful tool for people who have relatively well off social networks to exploit, families they don't wanna just hit up for money and would rather do it indirectly, or people who have lots of media attention to take advantage of, etc. I would not call it democratic in any deep or egalitarian sense of the word, even if hypothetically anyone can donate money. It seems like a low bar for the standard of "democratic patronage" to me. Which isn't to say you won't be getting a kickstarter request from me some day...<div>
<div></div><div class="h5"><div><div><br><div><br><div><div>On Jul 14, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Michael Mandiberg wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi All, but in particular Mushon and Mike,<br><br>I strongly disagree with the analysis about Diaspora, and the annoyingly dogmatic handwringing that party-line FLOSSers are doing. I do think there are other, very valid concerns, but not these. I have made this clear to Mushon previously. <br>
<br>This poses an interesting question for our project, and one which we have talked around, but not addressed head on: how do you deal with conflict? I would either like to re-write that passage, or be able to somehow remove my name from that analysis. If I re-write it, I am pretty sure that others will disagree. And removing a name is a beastly practice. And no, this is not worth Forking a project over.<br>
<br>Thoughts?<br><br>m<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sissu tarka <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sissu@basicray.org" target="_blank">sissu@basicray.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br> i am lazy sorry.<br> or rather working on another printed matter. Book<br> <br> found another reference the other day in our library><br> Jacques Derrida's "Paper machine"<br> <a href="http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=4984" target="_blank">http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=4984</a><br>
quite interesting, especially the link between book>paper to social status etc...<br> -the "paperless" - without (identity) papers..<br> <a href="http://www.sup.org/pages.cgi?isbn=0804746206&item=Translator_Note_pages&page=1" target="_blank">http://www.sup.org/pages.cgi?isbn=0804746206&item=Translator_Note_pages&page=1</a><br>
<br> <br> will try t add some lines -------<div><br> <br> sissu<br> <br> <br> <br> Quoting "Mushon | Shual.com" <<a href="mailto:mushon@shual.com" target="_blank">mushon@shual.com</a>>:<br> <br> </div><div>
<div></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> Same here.<br> My neck is fine (and so are my legs after an awesome massage in the East Village) and I intend to do some writing today both on Free Culture in Cultures that aren't Free and on The Third Concept of Liberty. I'll be on Skype soonish.<br>
<br> Cheers,<br> <br> Mushon Zer-Aviv<br> Mushon.com | Shual.com | ShiftSpace.org<br> <br> On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:17 AM, at <<a href="mailto:at@kein.org" target="_blank">at@kein.org</a>> wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi all,<br> <br> Just a word to say that I'll be resuming work on a couple of sections today. For most of the last week I've been decommissioned by a neck injury, that is happily now on the mend.<br> <br> a.<br> <br>
<br> On 6 Jul 2010, at 23:20, Mushon Zer-Aviv wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> Astra this is a great intro,<br>
I am already cooking the outlines for my contribution to this chapter.<br> I think it will try to take Catherine Frost's notion about the internet and postnationalism (article attached, please don't put it online it's all rights reserved... blah) and look at hackers in the middle east, with a specific emphasis on the <a href="http://arabtechies.net" target="_blank">arabtechies.net</a>. I really sympathize with your skepticism, Astra, though I think if we try to entertain the free as in free speech where freedom of speech is really dangerous, then the whole perspective changes. I am inspired by some of the tones coming from collectives like the ArabTechies and I think their work (of unauthorized collaboration) can really be seen as s call for "a future we deserve".<br>
<br> Does anyone else here have another idea for a "Futures" contribution? Catherine, Do you want a future with individuals? Alan, do you want a future informed somehow by P2P networks? Mike, no borders?<br> <br>
I am still waiting to hear back from Doug on some serious Booki issues, so lets use the time to finish the last parts of the book that still needs our attention.<br> <br> cheers,<br> Mushon Zer-Aviv<br> <part1.01010207.03000903> Shual.com - design studio<br>
§ ShiftSpace.org - an opensource layer above any website<br> ¶ Mushon.com - blog<br> × @mushon - Tweet me<br> + 1-646-283-6057<br> <br> <br> On 7/6/10 12:40 AM, Astra Taylor wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br> Hi Gang,<br> <br> I think I did my bits. I even crossed em out on the pirate pad.<br> <br> On the Free as in Free World -- I suggested this section as a way to make good on the book's title (Collaborative Futures), to push it away from simply being The Collaborative Present. For it, I wrote a short intro, to which I'm not attached. The thing is, I can't really do more as this is really where my worldview is butting up against the assumptions of the book -- I'm more skeptical of the political implications of open source/networked collaboration than, say, Mushon is. And I really feel that for this section to make sense within the book's framework it needs to be visionary, be a call to arms!<br>
<br> I guess I wanted this section to be that clarion call that would get someone like me enthused and excited about the social/political implications of this kind of work process. The problem is that it's not really a section I can write as someone who, even after this and though I've learned a lot, remains on the fence. It occurred to me that if the word at the center of this enterprise was interdependence, not collaboration, I'd be all over it -- collaboration remains a really loaded concept for me for various reasons.<br>
<br> It also may be that after hanging out in the gulf all of last week, I'm feeling particularly doomsdayish and un-visionary...<br> <br> Best wishes to everyone,<br> astra<br> <br> <br> On Jul 5, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Mike Linksvayer wrote:<br>
<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> Hey all,<br> <br> I think I've done all my tasks. Happy to look at something specific if anyone wants me to, but I'm out of >15min chunks of bandwidth for the next week or so.<br>
<br> Re the Crowdfunding chapter, I only captured a small part of what could be said, but it is now significantly less pitchy/more skeptical and makes a brief metion of Diaspora.<br> <br> Mike<br> </blockquote> <br> Astra Taylor/Hidden Driver<br>
<a href="http://www.hiddendriver.com" target="_blank">www.hiddendriver.com</a><br> <a href="http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com/examinedlife/" target="_blank">www.zeitgeistfilms.com/examinedlife/</a><br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote>
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<div><div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><div>Astra Taylor/Hidden Driver</div><div><a href="http://www.hiddendriver.com" target="_blank">www.hiddendriver.com</a></div><div><a href="http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com/examinedlife/" target="_blank">www.zeitgeistfilms.com/examinedlife/</a></div>
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