[FM Discuss] [CF] Re: need for CF mailing list // Fwd: historical collaborative writing
adam hyde
adam at flossmanuals.net
Mon Jul 12 10:02:44 PDT 2010
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 11:01 -0400, Mushon Zer-Aviv wrote:
> (ccing FM list [CF])
>
> Hi Sissu and all,
> A single book will cost $7.50 to print at Lulu (not including the
> shipping and the ISBN)
> The specs are:
> A5, ~150pp, Standard paper, perfect bound, B&W printing (with full
> color covers)
> http://www.lulu.com/author/wizard/index.php
> Not sure what would the shipping costs be as we have multiple
> addresses to send to. But that's where we stand right now.
> Adam, Michael and Catherine probably have more experience in Lulu than
> I do. Can we get an estimate at how much would shipping be?
hi...ok, on the fm list are me, mushon and mike...shall i sub the rest
or do you want to do it individually?
as for the postal estimation - make a fake order from lulu and it will
tell you the exact shipping cost
adam
>
> cheers,
> Mushon Zer-Aviv
> ע Shual.com - design studio
> § ShiftSpace.org - an opensource layer above any website
> ¶ Mushon.com - blog
> × @mushon - Tweet me
> + 1-646-283-6057
>
>
>
> On 7/12/10 2:36 AM, sissu tarka wrote:
> >
> > Mushon
> > thanks for all your work on this- ***
> >
> > prints, do you think we can ask amanda and paul for eyebeam to
> > sponsor a number of copies. i guess for them it's not such a huge
> > deal?!!
> >
> > hm. question also how many copies for each of us to circulate.
> > how many copies can we get with $ 500. think you mentioned, but
> > forgot...
> >
> >
> > soon
> > sisssu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Mushon Zer-Aviv <mushon at shual.com>:
> >
> > > On 7/9/10 9:25 PM, adam hyde wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 2010-07-09 at 18:15 -0700, Michael Mandiberg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > that if we use the list, we put a prefix on all emails. so a
> > > > > subject
> > > > > line would read something like this:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > CF: I will get the ISBN
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > sounds good
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > and as per the title above, i will get the ISBN and let mushon
> > > > > know
> > > > > how much it is. mushon, i will take repayment in the form of
> > > > > copies of
> > > > > the new edition of the book. what is the deadline for ISBN.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > We're almost done editing, it is mainly a bit more work on the
> > > glossary and finishing the Futures section.
> > > When we're done with that it's just final formatting of the PDF (I
> > > can't really do that before I know we have the final content)
> > > I need the ISBN for the cover. I would say *by the end of next
> > > week we should send the book to be printed*.
> > > > also, fm sent out 50 or so copies to academics and other
> > > > interested
> > > > peoples of the first version, it might be interesting to send
> > > > the same
> > > > people the second version...is there any cash to do this? (we
> > > > dont have
> > > > the $ to print or sent them at the mo)
> > > >
> > > Currently we have around $500 to break into writer fees and
> > > (optionally) for printing.
> > > So to judge by the writer fees each of us got in the first sprint
> > > (€500), I would say, no, we are broke.
> > > > > I want to have the "What is collaboration anyway?" section as
> > > > > one of
> > > > > the chapters in this NYU. Anyone have any advice, or want to
> > > > > do the
> > > > > editing, or object to me doing it, or? Also, what is the best
> > > > > way to
> > > > > notate authorship + writing process when taking a part out of
> > > > > the
> > > > > original whole, and out of the context of FM?
> > > > >
> > > > just copy the names from the chapter credits on the CREDITS
> > > > chapters...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > The way Wikipedia does the CC-BY-SA game is by a link to the
> > > article. I know it's contested and unstandardized.
> > > I think I read a post some guy called Mike Linksomething wrote
> > > about the subject:
> > > http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/13232
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, for full disclosure, the chapter will retain its
> > > > > CC-BY-SA
> > > > > license, but the *collection* of essays will be CC-BY-SA-NC.
> > > > > It is a
> > > > > collection of works, therefore it does not activate copyleft:
> > > > > this was
> > > > > a surprise to me. I spent six months negotiating, and even
> > > > > this
> > > > > license was pushing the press WAY beyond its comfort zone.
> > > > > They would
> > > > > not have done the book w/o the NC.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > i dont care...anyone else? i find licenses soooo boring...if its
> > > > reuse
> > > > then my general answer is 'yeah yeah whatever'...but if you
> > > > wanna be zen
> > > > about it you must get the ok from all authors...ugh..sorry i
> > > > said
> > > > that...
> > > >
> > > > adam
> > > >
> > > Yeah, I don't mind either... get rich!
> > > M.
> > > >
> > > > > m
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jul 9, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Mushon Zer-Aviv wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I generally agree with the generic best practice, and I see
> > > > > > Adam's
> > > > > > rational in prefering 1 live list rather than 2 dormant
> > > > > > ones.
> > > > > > I personally would like to see CF be a dormant one and have
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > drop by whenever actual work is being (/needs to be) done on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > book.
> > > > > > I am pretty sure the rest of the FM list would not have
> > > > > > appreciated
> > > > > > the noise of our back and forth about glossary and
> > > > > > formatting and I
> > > > > > would not really be interested in the internal discussion
> > > > > > over a
> > > > > > book about ffmpeg2theora. It is like saying, if you are into
> > > > > > books,
> > > > > > you'll be into any book. I beg to differ.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I say, if the list wants to try the FM list then let's do
> > > > > > that for a
> > > > > > month, and then decide if we deserve our own place or not.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > personally think it would be more practical to start with
> > > > > > our own
> > > > > > list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re: Michael's find
> > > > > > Super interesting stuff... It would be great for this to be
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > an case study or a glossary item. Are you into writing it?
> > > > > > Even more important, would you help get us a new ISBN? I am
> > > > > > pretty
> > > > > > overloaded with both CF and my own work and could really use
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > help. I can give my CC or repay you or whatever. When we get
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > done, I will calculate how much do we have left out of the
> > > > > > $1000
> > > > > > fortune we got for the second sprint and will follow up with
> > > > > > Verina,
> > > > > > Astra and Catherine to suck a few dollars as writer fees
> > > > > > from it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > cheers,
> > > > > > Mushon Zer-Aviv
> > > > > > <shual_gray.gif> Shual.com - design studio
> > > > > > § ShiftSpace.org - an opensource layer above any website
> > > > > > ¶ Mushon.com - blog
> > > > > > × @mushon - Tweet me
> > > > > > + 1-646-283-6057
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 7/9/10 5:09 AM, Mike Linksvayer wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Adam's advice is definitely the generic best practice --
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > split a list until it gets painful. Let's just use FM
> > > > > > > until/unless
> > > > > > > we have a good problem to have.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ps Anyone care if FM list just gets copied on this thread
> > > > > > > as an
> > > > > > > intro? :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:32 AM, adam
> > > > > > > hyde<adam at flossmanuals.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > its up to you guys. i think its usually better to
> > > > > > > add to a
> > > > > > > community and
> > > > > > > depart when it makes no more sense than to decide
> > > > > > > to set a
> > > > > > > new one up
> > > > > > > which may or may not gain momentum. there are
> > > > > > > plenty of
> > > > > > > people on the fm
> > > > > > > list that would find this post interesting. it is
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > community used to
> > > > > > > experimenting with the idea of books and the
> > > > > > > process of
> > > > > > > creating them
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you could preface the subject with CF: - to catch
> > > > > > > y'all
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > adam
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 2010-07-08 at 22:06 -0700, Michael
> > > > > > > Mandiberg
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > i send this FYI, and also as a very good reason
> > > > > > > why i
> > > > > > > think there
> > > > > > > > should be a CF specific mailing list (i had to
> > > > > > > go find
> > > > > > > an old email
> > > > > > > > and copy-paste, rather than sending
> > > > > > > to CF-discuss at flossmanuals.net). i
> > > > > > > > don't think this is appropriate for the FM
> > > > > > > list: i think
> > > > > > > it would get
> > > > > > > > lost in that list, and i don't think it would
> > > > > > > reach any
> > > > > > > of the CF
> > > > > > > > participants. I'm on the FM list, and I rarely
> > > > > > > read it
> > > > > > > at this point.
> > > > > > > > too much noise, not enough signals directed at
> > > > > > > me. at
> > > > > > > some point,
> > > > > > > > one-mailing-list-fits-all doesn't work
> > > > > > > anymore.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so... I just saw this in an email from LACE in
> > > > > > > Los
> > > > > > > Angeles. It is a
> > > > > > > > collaborative writing project that refers back
> > > > > > > to work
> > > > > > > done by
> > > > > > > > Bernadette Meyer, a NYC poet from the 70's and
> > > > > > > 80's. A
> > > > > > > bit of research
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > here: http://jacketmagazine.com/07/rifkin07.html
> > > > > > > lead me
> > > > > > > to these
> > > > > > > > two paragraphs. thought you all would be
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Unnatural Acts, the magazine that emerged from
> > > > > > > Mayer's
> > > > > > > Poetry Project
> > > > > > > > workshop in 1972, also reflects a certain
> > > > > > > resistance,
> > > > > > > and suggests the
> > > > > > > > distinct environment of the workshop as it
> > > > > > > contributed
> > > > > > > to the
> > > > > > > > variegated nature of the St. Mark's scene as a
> > > > > > > whole. In
> > > > > > > its treatment
> > > > > > > > of authorship and issues of literary property,
> > > > > > > Unnatural
> > > > > > > Acts might be
> > > > > > > > situated on a continuum with such precursor
> > > > > > > little
> > > > > > > magazines as Cid
> > > > > > > > Corman's Origin and Berrigan's "C," but it
> > > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > itself so far
> > > > > > > > down that line that it ends up constituting a
> > > > > > > major
> > > > > > > departure. In its
> > > > > > > > first issue, Unnatural Acts came out entirely
> > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > attribution or
> > > > > > > > editorial information. Issue 1 consists of
> > > > > > > fifty-seven
> > > > > > > numbered
> > > > > > > > sections, concluding comically and somewhat
> > > > > > > self-reflexively with a
> > > > > > > > lone plaintive voice asking, "Does everyone
> > > > > > > here know
> > > > > > > what / an ashram
> > > > > > > > is except me?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The product of a group of people gathering at
> > > > > > > Mayer's
> > > > > > > loft, writing
> > > > > > > > for 8 hours, and then publishing the results,
> > > > > > > this first
> > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > of Unnatural Acts exhibits all of the
> > > > > > > unevenness that
> > > > > > > might be
> > > > > > > > expected from such a process. The second issue,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > opened its doors
> > > > > > > > to people outside the workshop, offers an
> > > > > > > explicit
> > > > > > > account of
> > > > > > > > editorial policy and aesthetic agenda. A
> > > > > > > sidebar that
> > > > > > > continues from
> > > > > > > > the front to the back cover declares that "each
> > > > > > > issue of
> > > > > > > unnatural
> > > > > > > > acts magazine will be a collaborative writing
> > > > > > > experiment," going on to
> > > > > > > > name the eleven contributors, indicate the
> > > > > > > date
> > > > > > > (November 11, 1972) on
> > > > > > > > which the issue was written, and describe the
> > > > > > > fairly
> > > > > > > elaborate
> > > > > > > > procedure out of which it developed: each
> > > > > > > writer brought
> > > > > > > a page of
> > > > > > > > writing which was traded, rewritten, and
> > > > > > > discarded.
> > > > > > > Participants then
> > > > > > > > selected one of the rewritten documents and
> > > > > > > used it as
> > > > > > > the basis for a
> > > > > > > > new piece of writing. They noted the time at
> > > > > > > which their
> > > > > > > new work was
> > > > > > > > completed, returned it to a common pile, and
> > > > > > > then chose
> > > > > > > another page
> > > > > > > > to begin the process again; in the end, the
> > > > > > > poems were
> > > > > > > arranged
> > > > > > > > chronologically to produce the magazine's
> > > > > > > format. The
> > > > > > > front and back
> > > > > > > > covers (which you've got) contain a kind of
> > > > > > > disembodied
> > > > > > > conversation,
> > > > > > > > commenting on this process and theorizing
> > > > > > > collaboration
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > generally. Just yesterday I found in the
> > > > > > > archive a
> > > > > > > sketch for this
> > > > > > > > cover where this material is called a
> > > > > > > "manifesto" - it
> > > > > > > seems typical
> > > > > > > > of the Unnatural Actsinitiative to revise the
> > > > > > > manifesto
> > > > > > > into a more
> > > > > > > > dialogic and accretive form.
> > > > > > > > Unnatural Acts 5 also elaborates its process,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > directed writers
> > > > > > > > and visual artists through four stages of
> > > > > > > collaborative
> > > > > > > engagement and
> > > > > > > > exchange. After that issue, the magazine
> > > > > > > terminated, a
> > > > > > > fact
> > > > > > > > attributable to funding problems, though it has
> > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > suggested that
> > > > > > > > potential contributors from the community were
> > > > > > > discouraged by the
> > > > > > > > magazine's no-names policy. "Our poems aren't
> > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > appearances," one
> > > > > > > > excerpt from the Issue 2 cover maintains, "when
> > > > > > > you take
> > > > > > > out the I's /
> > > > > > > > everybody is matched." It is tempting to
> > > > > > > imagine a
> > > > > > > community as well
> > > > > > > > as a poetics founded on "taking out the I's,"
> > > > > > > and it
> > > > > > > seems that
> > > > > > > > Mayer's workshop and the extended group of
> > > > > > > writers and
> > > > > > > artists
> > > > > > > > surrounding it began to approximate such a
> > > > > > > space. In its
> > > > > > > desire to
> > > > > > > > take on the "unnatural" as its primary model
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > producing artworks,
> > > > > > > > the workshop deviates radically from the
> > > > > > > fantasies of
> > > > > > > > self-legitimation and organicism manifest in so
> > > > > > > many of
> > > > > > > the New
> > > > > > > > Americans' poetic and institutional
> > > > > > > productions. The
> > > > > > > "necessity . . .
> > > > > > > > to be as wood is," declared by Olson in
> > > > > > > "Projective
> > > > > > > Verse," is nowhere
> > > > > > > > felt in Unnatural Acts, and Berrigan's
> > > > > > > half-ironic
> > > > > > > claim, that "I was
> > > > > > > > and am "C" magazine...And I intended and intend
> > > > > > > for "C"
> > > > > > > to exist as a
> > > > > > > > personal aesthetic statement by me," finds no
> > > > > > > correlative in Mayer's
> > > > > > > > near-invisible self-positioning. In place of
> > > > > > > individual
> > > > > > > ambition,
> > > > > > > > process itself appears to reign. In Issue 2,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > collaboratively
> > > > > > > > produced poems begin to meditate on the
> > > > > > > linguistic and
> > > > > > > social
> > > > > > > > implications of this fact. I've given you one
> > > > > > > such poem,
> > > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > > submitted at 3:55. It begins:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > m
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > NOT CONTENT: UN-NATURAL ACTS
> > > > > > > > > w/ Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Performances and Collaborative Writing
> > > > > > > Marathon
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Taking its name from the historic
> > > > > > > collaborative
> > > > > > > writing marathons
> > > > > > > > > led by Bernadette Mayer and others in NYC
> > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > 1972-73, UN-NATURAL
> > > > > > > > > ACTS will explore the themes of hunger, war,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > desire through
> > > > > > > > > public acts of collaboration.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Beginning with two days of installation and
> > > > > > > performance by Amina
> > > > > > > > > Cain and Jennifer Karmin, a group of ten
> > > > > > > writers will
> > > > > > > gather on the
> > > > > > > > > third day to write together over the course
> > > > > > > of eight
> > > > > > > hours. In a
> > > > > > > > > daily ritual inaugurated on the fourth day,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > outline of a new
> > > > > > > > > person's body will be traced onto the bodies
> > > > > > > of text
> > > > > > > until the
> > > > > > > > > project closes on 8 August.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > EVENTS:
> > > > > > > > > Wed 21 July: Installation (12-5pm) and
> > > > > > > Hunger Texts
> > > > > > > Read in the
> > > > > > > > > Dark performance (5-5:30pm) by Amina Cain
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thu 22 July: Installation (12-5pm) and 4000
> > > > > > > Words 4000
> > > > > > > Dead
> > > > > > > > > street performance (5-6pm) by Jennifer
> > > > > > > Karmin
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Fri 23 July: Unnatural Acts, 8 hours of
> > > > > > > collaborative
> > > > > > > writing
> > > > > > > > > (12-8pm). Collaborators include: Jennifer
> > > > > > > Karmin,
> > > > > > > Amina Cain, Teresa
> > > > > > > > > Carmody, Saehee Cho, India Radfar, K.
> > > > > > > Lorraine Graham,
> > > > > > > Harold
> > > > > > > > > Abramowitz, Janice Lee, and a few
> > > > > > > surprises.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > July 24: Collaborative Reading and Artists'
> > > > > > > Talk
> > > > > > > (4-6pm). Readers
> > > > > > > > > include: Jennifer Karmin, Amina Cain, Teresa
> > > > > > > Carmody,
> > > > > > > Saehee Cho,
> > > > > > > > > India Radfar, K. Lorraine Graham, Harold
> > > > > > > Abramowitz,
> > > > > > > Janice Lee, and
> > > > > > > > > more.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > UN-NATURAL ACTS is part of NOT CONTENT, a
> > > > > > > series of
> > > > > > > text projects
> > > > > > > > > curated by Les Figues Press for Kim
> > > > > > > Schoenstadt's
> > > > > > > Painted
> > > > > > > > > Over/Under: Part 1.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Photo Credit: Bernadette Mayer and Jennifer
> > > > > > > Karmin
> > > > > > > August 2009, an
> > > > > > > > > afternoon of collaborative writing Photo by
> > > > > > > Philip
> > > > > > > Good.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Adam Hyde
> > > > > > > Founder FLOSS Manuals
> > > > > > > German mobile : + 49 177 4935122
> > > > > > > Email : adam at flossmanuals.net
> > > > > > > irc: irc.freenode.net #flossmanuals
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Free manuals for free software"
> > > > > > > http://www.flossmanuals.net/about
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Mike Linksvayer, Vice President
> > > > > > > Creative Commons
> > > > > > > 171 Second Street, Suite 300
> > > > > > > San Francisco, CA 94105
> > > > > > > office: +1 415-369-8480
> > > > > > > fax: +1 415-278-9419
> > > > > > > various: mlinksva
> > > > > > > email (preferred): scroll up
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please note: the contents of this email are not intended
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > legal advice nor should they be relied upon as, or
> > > > > > > represented to
> > > > > > > be legal advice. Creative Commons cannot and does not
> > > > > > > give legal
> > > > > > > advice. You need to assess the suitability of Creative
> > > > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > tools for your particular situation, which may include
> > > > > > > obtaining
> > > > > > > appropriate legal advice from a licensed attorney.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note: I am in the office Monday through Friday, though I
> > > > > > > work from
> > > > > > > home some days. I am reachable electronically more hours
> > > > > > > than is
> > > > > > > healthy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This email is:
> > > > > > > [ ] already on wikileaks [X] ask first [ ] top
> > > > > > > secret
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sent from a full-sized keyboard interfacing with
> > > > > > > GNU/Linux
> > > > > > > 2.6.32-22-generic #36-Ubuntu SMP Thu Jun 3 22:02:19 UTC
> > > > > > > 2010 i686
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
--
Adam Hyde
Founder FLOSS Manuals
German mobile : + 49 177 4935122
Email : adam at flossmanuals.net
irc: irc.freenode.net #flossmanuals
"Free manuals for free software"
http://www.flossmanuals.net/about
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