[FM Discuss] Last pending issues

Wed Jul 14 15:55:51 PDT 2010

Astra,

Democracy is a fuzzy term. Substitute more democratic or something perhaps.
Relative to patronage connoting an unequal relationship between ultra rich
patrons and artists, crowdfunding significantly changes who gets to be a
patron as well as the artist's relationship with patrons. Feel free to
qualify, rewrite, add counterpoint, etc!

Michael,

There's only a couple sentences on Diaspora, hardly enough to strongly
disagree with. Maybe not. Anyway, I'd be interested to see your rewrite.

Mike

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Astra Taylor <astra at hiddendriver.com>wrote:

> I don't know what to say about Mike's point but reading the final paragraph
> makes me wonder about this equation of crowdfunding and democracy -- I think
> kickstarter is a totally useful tool for people who have relatively well off
> social networks to exploit, families they don't wanna just hit up for money
> and would rather do it indirectly, or people who have lots of media
> attention to take advantage of, etc.  I would not call it democratic in any
> deep or egalitarian sense of the word, even if hypothetically anyone can
> donate money. It seems like a low bar for the standard of "democratic
> patronage" to me.  Which isn't to say you won't be getting a kickstarter
> request from me some day...
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Michael Mandiberg wrote:
>
> Hi All, but in particular Mushon and Mike,
>
> I strongly disagree with the analysis about Diaspora, and the annoyingly
> dogmatic handwringing that party-line FLOSSers are doing. I do think there
> are other, very valid concerns, but not these. I have made this clear to
> Mushon previously.
>
> This poses an interesting question for our project, and one which we have
> talked around, but not addressed head on: how do you deal with conflict? I
> would either like to re-write that passage, or be able to somehow remove my
> name from that analysis. If I re-write it, I am pretty sure that others will
> disagree. And removing a name is a beastly practice. And no, this is not
> worth Forking a project over.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> m
>
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sissu tarka <sissu at basicray.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> i am lazy sorry.
>> or rather working on another printed matter. Book
>>
>> found another reference the other day in our library>
>> Jacques Derrida's "Paper machine"
>> http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=4984
>> quite interesting, especially the link between book>paper to social status
>> etc...
>> -the "paperless" - without (identity) papers..
>>
>> http://www.sup.org/pages.cgi?isbn=0804746206&item=Translator_Note_pages&page=1
>>
>>
>> will try t add some lines -------
>>
>>
>> sissu
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Mushon | Shual.com" <mushon at shual.com>:
>>
>>  Same here.
>>> My neck is fine (and so are my legs after an awesome massage in the East
>>> Village) and I intend to do some writing today both on Free Culture in
>>> Cultures that aren't Free and on The Third Concept of Liberty. I'll be on
>>> Skype soonish.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Mushon Zer-Aviv
>>> Mushon.com | Shual.com | ShiftSpace.org
>>>
>>> On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:17 AM, at <at at kein.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Just a word to say that I'll be resuming work on a couple of sections
>>>> today. For most of the last week I've been decommissioned by a neck injury,
>>>> that is happily now on the mend.
>>>>
>>>> a.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6 Jul 2010, at 23:20, Mushon Zer-Aviv wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Astra this is a great intro,
>>>>> I am already cooking the outlines for my contribution to this chapter.
>>>>> I think it will try to take Catherine Frost's notion about the internet
>>>>> and postnationalism (article attached, please don't put it online it's all
>>>>> rights reserved... blah) and look at hackers in the middle east, with a
>>>>> specific emphasis on the arabtechies.net. I really sympathize with
>>>>> your skepticism, Astra, though I think if we try to entertain the free as in
>>>>> free speech where freedom of speech is really dangerous, then the whole
>>>>> perspective changes. I am inspired by some of the tones coming from
>>>>> collectives like the ArabTechies and I think their work (of unauthorized
>>>>> collaboration) can really be seen as s call for "a future we deserve".
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone else here have another idea for a "Futures" contribution?
>>>>> Catherine, Do you want a future with individuals? Alan, do you want a future
>>>>> informed somehow by P2P networks? Mike, no borders?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am still waiting to hear back from Doug on some serious Booki issues,
>>>>> so lets use the time to finish the last parts of the book that still needs
>>>>> our attention.
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers,
>>>>> Mushon Zer-Aviv
>>>>> <part1.01010207.03000903> Shual.com - design studio
>>>>> §  ShiftSpace.org - an opensource layer above any website
>>>>> ¶  Mushon.com - blog
>>>>> × @mushon - Tweet me
>>>>> + 1-646-283-6057
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/6/10 12:40 AM, Astra Taylor wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Gang,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I did my bits.  I even crossed em out on the pirate pad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the Free as in Free World -- I suggested this section as a way to
>>>>>> make good on the book's title (Collaborative Futures), to push it away from
>>>>>> simply being The Collaborative Present.  For it, I wrote a short intro, to
>>>>>> which I'm not attached.  The thing is, I can't really do more as this is
>>>>>> really where my worldview is butting up against the assumptions of the book
>>>>>> -- I'm more skeptical of the political implications of open source/networked
>>>>>> collaboration than, say, Mushon is.  And I really feel that for this section
>>>>>> to make sense within the book's framework it needs to be visionary, be a
>>>>>> call to arms!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess I wanted this section to be that clarion call that would get
>>>>>> someone like me enthused and excited about the social/political implications
>>>>>> of this kind of work process. The problem is that it's not really a section
>>>>>> I can write as someone who, even after this and though I've learned a lot,
>>>>>> remains on the fence.  It occurred to me that if the word at the center of
>>>>>> this enterprise was interdependence, not collaboration, I'd be all over it
>>>>>> -- collaboration remains a really loaded concept for me for various reasons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It also may be that after hanging out in the gulf all of last week,
>>>>>> I'm feeling particularly doomsdayish and un-visionary...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes to everyone,
>>>>>> astra
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Mike Linksvayer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hey all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think I've done all my tasks. Happy to look at something specific
>>>>>>> if anyone wants me to, but I'm out of >15min chunks of bandwidth for the
>>>>>>> next week or so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Re the Crowdfunding chapter, I only captured a small part of what
>>>>>>> could be said, but it is now significantly less pitchy/more skeptical and
>>>>>>> makes a brief metion of Diaspora.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Astra Taylor/Hidden Driver
>>>>>> www.hiddendriver.com
>>>>>> www.zeitgeistfilms.com/examinedlife/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> Astra Taylor/Hidden Driver
> www.hiddendriver.com
> www.zeitgeistfilms.com/examinedlife/
>
>
>
>
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